Anyone know Ninja Gaiden frame data across each game?

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RyuDaGoomba
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Anyone know Ninja Gaiden frame data across each game?

Post by RyuDaGoomba » Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:03 am

Does anybody here know the general frame data for Ninja Gaiden games? Like the timing window for a counter/sabaki? I know in games like DMC where Royal Guard is about a 6 frame window to execute a proper parry and Metal Gear Rising depending on the difficultly is about I believe 12 to 6 frames for its parries.

If so, does anyone know the general frame data for like landing recovery and how much it's reduced after say shuriken cancel on landing or Ultimate Technique On Landing charge?
The recovery of say moves like Flying Swallow to Izuna Drops?
The amount of frames given to perform a guard after an enemy makes contact with Ryu?
The amount of frames it takes to perform a just frame move like Dodge cancels after a guard crush? Or even guard resets?
Also among many things such as consecutive Wind Runs and the start up of ET's and UT's?
Hell, from what I've tried to dig up on here, the Tonfa have a lot of gaps between frames to make them vulnerable between attacks.
Thanks for any response and input.
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Re: Anyone know Ninja Gaiden frame data across each game?

Post by XNinjaRed » Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:58 pm

Just out of curiosity, how did people get those frame data for Devil May Cry 3 and Metal Gear Rising?
Because if it's thanks to their PC ports, it'd be kinda difficult to get the exact frame data of the Ninja Gaiden games as the only one on PC is Yaiba, which uses a totally different combat system and engine.

All we're sure of is that the target FPS for the Ninja Gaiden games are 60 fps (though whether it can hold it varies from game to game) and that the Counter Attack in Ninja Gaiden is a LOT easier to do than DMC3's Just Guard, so you could imagine it's at LEAST more than a 6 frame window.

Personally I never really learned the exact millisecond of DMC3's Royal Guard (which if it IS a 6 frame window, would mean it's a window of 1/6th a second) as I just kinda felt it out, but I guess the counter attack frame is rather similar to Metal Gear Rising's parry, I guess it could indeed be 1/3rd a second, but that's just how it feels to me, I can't confirm it.

I think part of the "responsiveness" of the Ninja Gaiden games come from how it kinda "buffers" the input every now and then, like it recognizes you pressed A, even though it shouldn't make Ryu jump yet due to the status of Ryu still being in on-landing status (which, unless you tap forward and A at the same time again, would make Ryu do a few steps before either stopping or continuing into the running animation) but it just "waits" tille Ryu is in the next following state that makes it possible for him to jump.

Or to put it more simply, if you press A during a time when Ryu shouldn't jump, the game will look if it's within a certain frame window of the time when he CAN jump and then decides if Ryu jumps or not.

This is why things like consecutive wind runs generally are very easy to do by simply mashing A in a crowd of enemies.
It's also why you can literally do Izuna Drop by doing XY (Mash)X and then Y, even if you did press X more than 3 times, the game will register the moment you pressed Y as long as it's done within the third slash.

I kinda personally dubbed it the "player benefit system", but that's just me. :P
It's something I'd like to replicate in my own games.

Back to the point though, I think it's kind of a difficult situation right now to get the exact frame data.
But if someone can actually get it, I'd love to hear about it, as it's data I'd like to use myself.
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Re: Anyone know Ninja Gaiden frame data across each game?

Post by H.Smoke » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:29 pm

It'd be nice if someone here can back some of that up but you are getting into blurry territory. As NinjaRed said, given how the games were designed a lot of stuff regarding frames can vary or not have a "default" number (I bet not all the attacks give you the same amount of frames to block them, for example).

Something like guard crush/cancelling are probably in the single digit mark, but others can be a real pain to determine. To give you an example in NG2 most of the ET/UTs will let you wide open and 'frozen' in the animation/recovery if they miss, BUT with the mighty Tonfas if an enemy touches you within a certain time (frames) in the whiffed animation, it will connect and start the animation.
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Re: Anyone know Ninja Gaiden frame data across each game?

Post by RyuDaGoomba » Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:43 pm

yeah, i'd imagine a lot of frame data within games like those aren't quite set in stone IE fighting games.
And wowowow, i forgot about NG's buffer system when writing this post, Team Ninja's fite game experience and all.

but as for the DMC3 claim, the most I've heard about the frame data was from Saur (the guy who founds out stuff for 3d action/beat em up games before anyone else) when he compared Metal Gear Rising's parry system was similar in terms of the window being 6 frames. Unfortunately, he seemed to have disabled comments and the comment he posted doesn't exist, so it kinda seems like i'm talking out of my ass at this point when making the comparison.

I just find it surprising that NG is technically one of the juggernauts of the genre with DMC and doesn't seem to be a whole lot of information on the mechanics and even frame data compared to that of DMC and Bayo. Like, what's up with that? is NG just THAT intimating (cuz that can be determent to the growth I GUESS but From Software proved hard games can be mainstream despite NG doing hard stuff since its inception in 1988 ;p) or is there something more complex within the algorithms to figure out proper frame data due to a huge number of factors of how you interact with enemies? A lot of this can get into hazy territory and I honestly understand finding out this type of stuff will take more than a day but I would assume possibly something like counter timing and just start up for ET into UT would exist but as far as I've tried to search, I can't find really much on it.
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Re: Anyone know Ninja Gaiden frame data across each game?

Post by XNinjaRed » Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:43 am

I don't think it's so much how intimidating the game is as much as that Ninja Gaiden as an action game has a different audience than Devil May Cry or Bayonetta.
Devil May Cry and Bayonetta encourage the players to find out ever nook and crany about it's combo system, and figuring out the precise data of stuff like jump cancelling timing really gives you a huge benefit.

Ninja Gaiden on the other hand, as much as I love it's combo system (I mean, I've made my fair share of Combo Videos of them after all) making complex combos has never been it's big selling point. The combat system revolves around planning your attacks, finding the best spots to charge up your UTs and doing the right move at the right time.

With a system like that, the majority of players don't put as much effort in getting the exact timing of stuff right compared to Devil May Cry 3 where Royal Guard is a HUGE reward. I mean just look at the Vigoorian Flails' Runaway Lightning. It requires the most precise timing of the whole game, yet besides as a novelty of combo videos to show off, it's not that useful. Instead Ninja Gaiden more focused on stuff like positioning and movement.

My point is that, if Devil May Cry is Street Fighter, where you get all the data during the fights like "First Hit!" or "Counter!" or "Just Guard!" and have the players maximize their efficiency in being the best at comboing or ruining other people's combos, Ninja Gaiden is Mortal Kombat, where it's simply about who's getting that first hit of a combo in. Again, difference of audiences.
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Re: Anyone know Ninja Gaiden frame data across each game?

Post by Fiend Busa » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:46 am

Always been curious myself.

I wish they would port it to the PC, would make it so much easier to figure it out.
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