My current experience with Razor's Edge

PLATFORM: PS3, Xbox 360; RELEASE: November 18th 2012
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My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Ninja Noob » Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:25 pm

So I'd like to talk about my experience and thoughts about NGRE untill now.

What I've done so far:

I completed story mode in normal playing most of the ToV's, some of them I missed though. Skipped hard, gone directly to Master Ninja mode, get to ToV 2, but restarted 'cause I wasn't happy with my purchases and now I'm stucked on ToV 1 which I can't clear anymore. Doku had kill me two times thanks to falied inputs. Being a little sick of it, I'm playing the Ninja Trials, I completed all the acolyte ones and I tried some Mentor, Leader and Master Ninja ones. Now I'm planning to play more trials and maybe clear Hard story mode before going into MN.

What's my current opinion about this game:

I think I actually figured out the big issue about the gameplay, the weapon at base level behave very bad, and delimbing most of the enemy types or simply breaking their guard can be really difficult, and that leads to a very defensive, or spammy, or very cheap playstyle. The weapon upgrades cost way too much, and you have also to buy the most basic abilities, like the windpath which is absurd. This leads into more cheapness, because you want to fish for getting most SoB's possible before the First ToV's to get money for just upgrading a weapon, and I think it's no way to get to ToV 1 with more than a lv2 weapon. So you tend to upgrade the Scythe first, and use a lot of 360, which leads into more cheapness.

When you get the weapons upgraded the games opens up much more and really starts to breath, there are a lot of useful combos which can end directly into delimbs into OT's, the launchers hit more frequently, the enemy guard is broken more easily. The enemies are very aggressive, but not too much, so you can play a more freeform oriented style, ending the combos into OT i-frames, or simply interrupting them with shuriken canceling if you realize you're surronded.

Sometimes the T/Y attacks hit enemies while they are doing their SoB attacks, initiating a SoB chain, which blends very well with the pace. You acan also find tricks to trigger the bigger enemies SoB's and dispatch them more easily.

The various weapons and the extra character have a very interesting movesets, making them all worth to be checked. The Kusari Gama is the coolest, more spectacular imo.

The Cicada Surge is a very cool move and is very useful in differnt situations, which add more variety to gameplay.

So, this is why the Trials are much better than story mode: you have full arsenal, have every ability and can play three extra character. If you want to play the noob ninja, you can still enjoy the easier trials to farm for essence and abilities, I suppose. This leads me into thinking that chapter challenge can also be very good, 'cause I assume you have full arsenal even with Ryu. And it also leads me to think that maybe ng+ story mode is much better than fresh story mode, which makes me think that maybe karma glitching coul'd be a good thing?

So, this ended up being the first NG game based on freeform combat! I was hoping for this kind of gameplay in Ninja Gaiden series. I strongly hope that they can make an optimized version of this system with NG4. They probably shoul'd work on level design and upgrade/ability system in story mode, and also try to make the action a bit less repetitive, which is the only complaint I'm having with Trials mode.

Another thing they shoul'd correct as a priority is the missing inputs issue, which is infuriating, but I heard that it is an issue with most PS3 game (which is a shame), so maybe Team Ninja is not to blame for that.

By now, I'm strongly optimistic for NG4, let's hope they will take all the time necessary to release a complete, polished product.
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Murphy's Ghost » Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:40 am

Ninja Noob wrote: So, this ended up being the first NG game based on freeform combat!
Well, IMO a little yes and a little no.

The combat system has a lot of potential but the thing that bugs me is that all the free-flowing potential goes out the window every single time you fight a boss- and even worse in the later missions that spam bosses at you.


But the moveset / combat design on Ryu's end is interesting. I wish it had some better short, high-impact combos like NG2- it seems like most of the better combos for the sword are pretty long ones- but overall it does a lot of good things. I hope they improve the enemy design and ESPECIALLY the boss design for the next NG, I think in order to realize the potential of what Ryu can do they need to be a lot more careful in creating the opponents' movesets and behaviors.


Anyway, sounds like you're having fun. RE is a weird game to get used to coming from the other NGs but it is definitely a pretty fun game once you start feeling more comfortable with the moveset.
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by reim0027 » Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:19 am

Glad to see you like it. Also, the KG is my favorite weapon. Pretty much the only weapon I use.
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Ninja Noob » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:56 am

Murphy's Ghost wrote:I wish it had some better short, high-impact combos like NG2- it seems like most of the better combos for the sword are pretty long ones- but overall it does a lot of good things
Yes but I think that this is the point of the game. I remember some players complaining about the fact that you use just two short combos in NG2/NGB, while RE seems to encourage the use of more complex string (still not too long, of course, and shuriken canceling is very good for safety imo). The fact that you easily go from delimbing into OT in a single combo, and that the T/Y attack can go into a SoB chain makes longer strings less risky. I also have the impressions that some charged T/Y attacks have a little i-frames window. UT's usage is also different, though I don't know if I really like it, no UT play is more pleasing in this game.

You are right about the bosses, but still I like to Fight Volf both in RE and NG2. I woul'd remove the flying swallow attack from Genshin: it's too easy to punish, force me learning all his combo strings to land some damage.

The only thing that feels "wrong" to me about RE is that I don't want to play it for straight 8 hours session like I did with NGB/NG2, the gameplay needs a little bit more variety (imo, of course, this is just for me). I wouldn't like if this turned into a short burst sessions/multiplayer oriented game like a lot of contemporary franchises. I think PVP and coop in this game can be great fun (still have to try them though), but please don't turn this into Dark Souls Ninja Edition. Let me have a great single player experience, and design an awesome story campaign to play over and over.

If I'm missing something, help me figuring it out and enjoying RE to its full potential.
reim0027 wrote:Also, the KG is my favorite weapon. Pretty much the only weapon I use
Me too, it has so many cool feature. OL S/X shuriken cancelable from two different parts is very unique. But I think all the weapons can be interesting, the only one from which I want to stay as far as possible is the scythe, I think they designed it just to make full completion of the game more accessible. Don't like DS too much so far, but I watched some footage and I thing I still have to learn using it properly...
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by reim0027 » Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:17 pm

The only thing I don't like a out the KG is that it sucks for bosses (most bosses).
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Ninja Noob » Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:00 am

I'm playing the game, I cleared Hard story mode with all ToV's, I'm on Master Ninja day 4 ToV, I completed Acolyte and Mentor trials, tried all characters, I'm playing the Leader trials with the Dragon Sword, I'm watching videos.

Some days I play for five hours or more, other days I don't play at all. My opinion with RE changes from day to day, sometimes I think it's good, sometimes it's just boring and repetitive. When I watch videos from the best players, especially non scythe ones, I tend to think the game has potential, and I'm struggling to learn those things I watch from the pros that I like most, especially the use of the Cicada Surge. Sometimes I think this is a game with a very high learning curve, and you need to develope high skill in order for you to like it, other times I just feel that RE is a badly designed game with few enemies that always do the same boring things.

The big problem is that you can't kill enemies fast, while they are very aggressive and inflict good damage. The result is that you often have to wait for the right moment to attack and you just can't do anything special while waiting, other than move around a lot, and it is boring as Hell. If you are fighing three Gelfs one close to each other and you refuse to spam the Scythe, there is not really anything you can do until they separate for you to take them down one at the time.

RE is designed to be played fishing for sob's, that's the problem imo. You can force your playstyle into something more interesting, but only if you are EXTREMELY good. I watched Kage and Fiend Busa footage, and they make the game look beautiful, but sometimes I think it's just their skill, not the game, that's awesome to watch.

If I'm missing something, please help me open my eyes and appreciate RE for what it is. Today I just played it a lot and it looked like nonsense to me.
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Fiend Busa » Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:20 pm

Ninja Noob wrote:I'm playing the game, I cleared Hard story mode with all ToV's, I'm on Master Ninja day 4 ToV, I completed Acolyte and Mentor trials, tried all characters, I'm playing the Leader trials with the Dragon Sword, I'm watching videos.

Some days I play for five hours or more, other days I don't play at all. My opinion with RE changes from day to day, sometimes I think it's good, sometimes it's just boring and repetitive. When I watch videos from the best players, especially non scythe ones, I tend to think the game has potential, and I'm struggling to learn those things I watch from the pros that I like most, especially the use of the Cicada Surge. Sometimes I think this is a game with a very high learning curve, and you need to develope high skill in order for you to like it, other times I just feel that RE is a badly designed game with few enemies that always do the same boring things.

The big problem is that you can't kill enemies fast, while they are very aggressive and inflict good damage. The result is that you often have to wait for the right moment to attack and you just can't do anything special while waiting, other than move around a lot, and it is boring as Hell. If you are fighing three Gelfs one close to each other and you refuse to spam the Scythe, there is not really anything you can do until they separate for you to take them down one at the time.

RE is designed to be played fishing for sob's, that's the problem imo. You can force your playstyle into something more interesting, but only if you are EXTREMELY good. I watched Kage and Fiend Busa footage, and they make the game look beautiful, but sometimes I think it's just their skill, not the game, that's awesome to watch.

If I'm missing something, please help me open my eyes and appreciate RE for what it is. Today I just played it a lot and it looked like nonsense to me.

NG2 had a few go to moves for the most part that worked on almost every enemy. In NGRE....everything literally works. Don't try to play it like the previous NG games.

I would explain to you how every enemy A.I behaves to help you but im so bad at explaining lol :headbash:
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Ninja Noob » Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:20 pm

Thanks for the reply, Fiend Busa. I think that I understood how the AI works, but of course I coul'd be wrong and you actually played the game for much more time and are extremely good at it, so I'll be glad to read everything that you or the other guys here want to write about AI, mechanics, advanced techniques, advanced strategies, and in general about what's so good about this game. Even if you think you are bad at explaining, if you want to try you are welcom :ahhh:

On my side, I'll try to put more hours into RE to improve my skills and have a better feeling of the gameplay. In this moment, the feeling I have is not good unfortunately. I was using the Scythe through hard campaign and the first days on MN difficulty, but it was so boring to spam 360 and fish for sob's that I switched to the Sword and a more offensive gameplay. It felt good in the first hours of play. Now it just feels "strange", and becomes quite repetitive very fast. I need to take a break very often to refresh my ideas, otherwise I find myself playing a sort of "flowchart". NG2 was actually very "flowcharty", but in a funny way. This game seems to give more freedom to the player, but it is so demanding that's not fun for players like me.

Edit: I also played Acolyte and Mentor missions using KG, Lunar and DS.

It's curious that various people point that the hardest difficulties in this game are not the most funny to play, while in the past games you always want to play on the hardest setting.

It is not about how Ryu behaves, he's awesome. It's the way the enemy react and are susceptible to Ryu's moves that's just... I don't know how to describe it.

I don't know if this sort of rants can be annoying to you guys, so if you don't like them I'll stop posting and let you enjoy the game you like in peace without bothering too much, let me know :ahhh:
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by reim0027 » Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:29 pm

I understand what you are talking about. I haven't even played SM on UN difficulty yet, and have no desire to play it. It is just plain cheap. I'm not skilled enough to play the trials on UN and have fun at the same time, so I avoid those. I think Leader is the best difficulty for the trials. On MN and above, it just seems like they want to put as many bosses as possible for the trials. Since I hate boss fights, this is absolutely no fun.
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Fiend Busa » Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:38 pm

Ninja Noob wrote:Thanks for the reply, Fiend Busa. I think that I understood how the AI works, but of course I coul'd be wrong and you actually played the game for much more time and are extremely good at it, so I'll be glad to read everything that you or the other guys here want to write about AI, mechanics, advanced techniques, advanced strategies, and in general about what's so good about this game. Even if you think you are bad at explaining, if you want to try you are welcom :ahhh:

On my side, I'll try to put more hours into RE to improve my skills and have a better feeling of the gameplay. In this moment, the feeling I have is not good unfortunately. I was using the Scythe through hard campaign and the first days on MN difficulty, but it was so boring to spam 360 and fish for sob's that I switched to the Sword and a more offensive gameplay. It felt good in the first hours of play. Now it just feels "strange", and becomes quite repetitive very fast. I need to take a break very often to refresh my ideas, otherwise I find myself playing a sort of "flowchart". NG2 was actually very "flowcharty", but in a funny way. This game seems to give more freedom to the player, but it is so demanding that's not fun for players like me.

Edit: I also played Acolyte and Mentor missions using KG, Lunar and DS.

It's curious that various people point that the hardest difficulties in this game are not the most funny to play, while in the past games you always want to play on the hardest setting.

It is not about how Ryu behaves, he's awesome. It's the way the enemy react and are susceptible to Ryu's moves that's just... I don't know how to describe it.

I don't know if this sort of rants can be annoying to you guys, so if you don't like them I'll stop posting and let you enjoy the game you like in peace without bothering too much, let me know :ahhh:
Yea, they enemies are very defensive when they aren't in a bloody state.
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Ninja Noob » Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:37 am

@Reim: it's embarassing to admit, but I have the feeling that this game feels good only when you win and everything goes the way you want. When you start to die or you are forced to cheap through with spam, it just lose meaning. Hence, most player just choose their difficulty level and stick with it until they get burned, and there comes the "social" aspect of the game, like with any other commercial/modern product which life is supposed to be prolonged by the multiplayer features.

That's not necessary a bad thing, but I feel like I'm enjoying just half part of the game.

By the other side, those guys that can be so good at the game, they really shine and are godlike, I love them. Most of time I want to play the game because I just watched some awesome footage and want to emulate. To use the surge like Kagerasimaru does: it looks very easy when you watch the video, it is just not. Tecmo shoul'd pay these guys, they are awesome. Today I took a look at cM DevilZz youtube channel: amazing goodness.

BTW: this game is not completely bad, but now I'm uncertain if I hope for an optimized build of this system or a completely new one in NG4. I strongly think that SoB is not a good mechanic and, the fact that the karma system is based on it, strongly influenced the way the AI is programmed and the way the difficulty is balanced through the levels (normal, hard, MN etc. the further you go, the hardest is to hurt enemies to make them SoB more often).

If they want to work on something that already exist, it's better they pick the other two builds of the game, and maybe avoid Sigma phylosophy. Or just kidnap Itagaki and force him to work on the next Ninja game. Bald tatoo half naked guys that throw Katanas like Tomahawk between sandbags: do not want (LOL)

Maybe I just belongs to that cathegory of gamers that can't adapt to moder gaming concept/design, I just don't know...
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Dark Hazuki » Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:38 pm

I think the most important thing is to just have fun with the game. Take your time and don't expect too much too soon. Personally, I really don't care about the 'badge of honour' approach to playing this, and what I mean by that is that I don't feel I have to always play on the hardest difficulty to be satisfied.

Also, I have to admit that I play this game exactly how I played NG2. But obviously without the SoBs. The approach is the same however. My priority is to dismember and then OT. Normally with the good ol' square, square, triangle, circle, triangle combo that I used to spam back in the NG2 days. I only go for SoBs when the opportunity presents itself (like, literally handed to me on a plate).

I also stick to trials and a few chapter challenges. Story mode is a bit boring to be honest. I quite like the online play, though; it's more fun than I thought it would be.
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by reim0027 » Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:14 pm

I wish online was more active when I'm on. It got slow, and I really haven't played much of it in a few months.
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Ninja Noob » Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:40 pm

Well it's not a matter of "badge of honor", it is very difficult to explain. Maybe I'm just convinced that this is a bad game because I read a lot of rants about it, maybe it's just a psychological effect...

About the online I'm not saying that's bad, but just that I feel it is there also to both compensate that lack of balance in difficulty and to give the game a kindo of "modern playabilty". It's also a little bit selfish, I admit, because I don't have a great connection and also I don't like to depend from the availability of other people to play the game I like. That's one of the reason why I quit playing Street Fighter and focused more on NG.
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Dark Hazuki » Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:51 pm

Ninja Noob wrote:Well it's not a matter of "badge of honor", it is very difficult to explain.
Yeah, I understand. I wasn't really directing that at anyone, just explaining that I play this game more for fun than anything else. :thumb:

Maybe that's why I can overlook the negatives easier than others. I don't take the game to a point where all of that matters. It's just a ninja-fix for me. And a satisfying one at that! I do like the other NG games, some of them more than RE, but there's only so many hours you can sink into a game before it becomes too familiar and tedious. I mean, as much as I love NGB and NG2, I just can't play them anymore. Not even for a little while. I've definitely overplayed them! So for me, this is the only NG game that I can enjoy these days.
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Ninja Noob » Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:38 pm

I can understand! I guess you are one of those players who made the history of NG leaderboards in the golden ages ^^
BTW I'm still playing RE, sometimes I can really enjoy it, I'll see what will be my feeling in the long run.
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by H.Smoke » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:27 pm

I think I understand your situation. As I said in other thread this game basically asks you to abuse the SoB technique to kill enemies. The fact that the enemies dodge and evade perfectly and inflict tons of damage was like a way to make the player understand that you HAVE to use SoB (btw I'm talking specially for MN here). It's really boring, for me the comparison with NG2 starts with the delimbs and ends with the blood because aside from that I can't see what they have in common. Been playing NG2 a lot lately and it has an insanely fluid combat system, the enemies hit hard, but they also die quickly and your attacks actually are useful, since enemies are a bunch of mary sues in RE moves like the izuna drop or the wind path are not as useful there. But that's just my point of view and it's not what the thread is about.

My philosophy is really simple: if I'm not having fun with the game then is better for me to stop playing and employ my time in other things. With RE hard difficulty was somewhat tedious and frustrating but once I started MN I definitely had to stop playing because it was unbearable.

Anyway I'm very traditional in this cases and I'm too used to some staples in the gameplay like essence and items and they not being in RE was a letdown and that plus all the other shitty things made me quit. Never really tried the trials because I'm not into that but I'm reading a lot people complaining about the story mode but having fun with the other things the game has to offer, although if it was for me I'd like Team Ninja to really focus in the single player experience more for NG4 since in the end that's the main feature of these games.
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Ninja Noob » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:48 pm

Yes I agree with your analysis, but I can still enjoy the game in certain instances. It can be played aggressively, and it's fun, but sometimes it just refuses to be played that way, so it becomes not fun. I guess I don't have the skill to play it the way I like. If the AI wasn't tweaked around SoB's it would have been great. I'lll try to play it more to see if I can be better, but for example now I just need to rant in many annoying ways about it :picard: (LOL)
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Ninja Noob » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:54 am

So, in the end I'm learning to play better and I'm enjoying the game again ^^

I had to completely ban the Scythe and stick to the Sword, but this way I'm having big fun and learning a lot of things, like the dash canceling. I'm still slow and sometimes I miss the correct input, but this movement technique does a huge difference in gameplay. It allow to make enemy attack whiff and to go back in time to punish, Ryu is so fast that he can defend and attack much more effectively, and it is much safer to move along the battlefield this way than dash jumping.

I'm also practicing the Surge in many different instances. These two techniques combined together make Ryu 100% better, I just can't imagine to play without them, it's a whole different game, and it is much more enjoyable.

Add knowledge about enemies, SoB patterns, best combos, trick, add the use of ninpo and Meditation to the gameplay and the difficulty becomes much less brutal. But the game is that demanding, if you don't learn everything about the mechanics, you just die. Unless you use the Scythe which is much easier but don't let you learn a lot of thing the game has to offer. Anyways I'm glad I used it in my first runs so I coul'd learn the very basics without too much stress.

I just won't compare this to the older NG games because, after I played at least one revision of each main build of the game, I think that making comparisons it's useless. It's better to enjoy any game alone, everyone of them is well worth.
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Kagerasimaru » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:10 am

Surge takes some time to adapt to your gameplay and im still improving on it. I started out learning surge on the alchemists once they delimb and do their suicide grab. That move is so easy to dodge i figured id practice it on there. Then you work on the ai knowing they're always gonna try and rush you so you should be ready to surge. keep at it and you'll become a better player :)
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Ninja Noob » Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:06 am

Kagerasimaru wrote:they're always gonna try and rush you so you should be ready to surge
Yes, I noticed it's the key. Still sucking hard though, it requires you to be very focused when playing ^^
My worst enemies are Brutes and Snakes. I'm still learning the bosses, I know their patterns but still didn't learn the proper combos.

Anyways I agree with you guys that NG3RE has great combat. Today I played Master 12 with Fiend Busa (thanks for the games, mate!) and discovered that the netcode is also good. I expected a big mess, but it actually doesn't lag too much, the only complaint is that it's a little bit buggy but it's very playable. I'm assuming Fiend Busa lives far away from me but input latency wasn't much, I'm impressed.
Kagerasimaru wrote:keep at it and you'll become a better player :)
Thanks bro, it's always good to get support, I appreciate a lot :thumb:
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Re: My current experience with Razor's Edge

Post by Fiend Busa » Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:20 am

Ninja Noob wrote:Yes I agree with your analysis, but I can still enjoy the game in certain instances. It can be played aggressively, and it's fun, but sometimes it just refuses to be played that way, so it becomes not fun. I guess I don't have the skill to play it the way I like. If the AI wasn't tweaked around SoB's it would have been great. I'lll try to play it more to see if I can be better, but for example now I just need to rant in many annoying ways about it :picard: (LOL)
Enemies have two states

1. Normal state - block more often and won't usually let you launch them 90% of the time unless you do a combo that leads to a launcher, and that's not guaranteed as well
2. Bloody State - Enemy defense is pretty much gone (The enemies with the pylons seem to still have a good amount of defense, even in a bloody state). Likelihood of getting a launcher is increased greatly but is still not guaranteed (I think the pawn enemies will never evade your launcher in a bloody)

Enemies also abuse your recovery frames which is stupid and cheap.

For some moves if you are about to get hit mid string its actually better to not shuriken cancel and just block the hit. This way you can guarantee you won't get hit (In NGRE the shuriken recovery to me seems bugged, sometimes Ryu will dodge right after a shuriken and sometimes ill get hit) and still have the option to shuriken/surge out.
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