Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

PLATFORM: Xbox 360; RELEASE: June 3rd 2008
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Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Grayson1048 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:35 am

This is a modding idea.

You know how 360 players don’t like Sigma 2 and PS3 players don’t like Vanilla 2? And both type of players say the other game’s difficulty is cheap, particularly on Master Ninja?

For a 10 year anniversary edition (which, of course, didn’t happen in 2018 nor 2019, so it would have to be a mod), the game’s mechanics should be a middle point between the mechanics of Vanilla and Sigma 2.
The following variables would be taken into account: number of enemies on screen, damage given, damage taken, quantity of enemy projectiles at a time, and grab attack frequency.

(The following quantities are examples, not real in-game measured quantities)

If on Vanilla there were an average of 7-8 enemies on-screen at a given moment, and on Sigma 2 there were 3-4, let there be 5-6.

If on Vanilla a given enemy could take 4 hits and on S2 he could take 8, let him be able to take 6.

If on Vanilla a grab-attack or enemy projectile meant 30% damage taken and on S2 it meant 90%, let it mean 60%.

If on Vanilla one could have up to 4-5 incendiary shurikens stuck or rocketeers firing at a time and on S2 one could have up to 1-2, let it be up to 3.

If on Vanilla enemies tried to grab you every 10 seconds and on S2 they tried it every 4, let them try it every 7.

As you can see, all game mechanics would be a middle ground between Vanilla and Sigma 2, and IMO that would solve all of the percieved cheapness of both.
Also, the girl’s chapters should be removed, I don’t think anybody enjoys them.
Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition would be, I think, loved by everybody.

Mission Mode.

Co-op missions should stay, but so should solo ones. The use of Sigma 2’s AI partner should be optional, since he/she makes things harder most of the times, rendering impossible (or almost impossible) some missions that were very doable in Vanilla.

In a word, it should be like NG3 and Razor’s Edge, where one can choose to either solo or co-op each mission. This with the added option of Sigma 2’s AI partner.

Also, the game should have the survival missions from Vanilla back. Removing them in S2 was a mistake.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Royta » Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:50 am

Both games are fine imo. Xbox players tend to find NGS2 too easy, and PS3 players tend to find NGII way too 'messy and unfair'. You have to look at the goal of the game. NGII was all about brutal agression, where you're absolutely swarmed with enemies and have to come out on top using what you have. If anything I'd say let there be more, not less. The low damage you take, by comparison, was intentional as otherwise the swarm would just kill you instantly. NGII is extremely finely tuned for such an unfinished game. Let it stay the way it is, by nerfing its enemy count and buffing the damage you'll already completely change the game I feel. Personally that's why I love that there's two versions of the game, you can just play both of them. I wouldn't enjoy the game you suggest to be honest and would probably just stick to the vanilla version on Xbox One X.

If NGII were to get an anniversary edition, I'd honestly only request certain sections to be polished more i.e.

- the water combat getting a block button and not requiring mashing of the jump button;
- re-tweaking the worm cave;
- add post-boss checkpoints;
- perhaps add Scarabs back in for some extra items;
- fix the Gigadeath fight to not be so glitchy and obnoxious;
- allow us to GT dogs;
- fix the tracking on some moves like the TDS UT;
- remove the bug that an OT at times doesn't trigger;
- don't let mines spawn infinitely at key locations;
- fix Zedonius's air-time, it is really obnoxious;
- give the survival missions some wider trees so wall-attacks are more prevelant;

For NGS2 I'd say just keep the game the way it is but make the girl chapters their own menu.

If you try to please everyone you tend to please no-one. I'd rather have a game that absolutely commits to its vision that seeking a bit of a safe middleground. But that's me. For reference I started with NGS2 and later picked up NGII. I love both but I feel NGII is superior in the end.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Murphy's Ghost » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:25 am

Is modding like this even possible?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Royta » Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:03 am

Not at all sadly, the best modding that we got done in an NG game was some texture changes in NG2004 and removing Ryu's mask in NG3RE.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Grayson1048 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:11 pm

Thank you both for your answers :)

Royta:
You make good points. But, as you say, that's your opinion. I started with Vanilla, I also play and love both games, I HAVE felt the cheapness in both of them and I fully understand and can relate to the complaints of both 360 and PS3 players.
As such, I would be absolutely interested in a game that had the strenghts of both and the weaknesses of neither.
And that's without mentioning a newcomer. Someone whose first experience with Ninja Gaiden 2 was an anniversary edition like the one I suggest would fall in love with the game more than any of us did, I think.

Murphy's Ghost:
I really don't know the first thing about modding. If I did, I would make this mod myself, and the ones I suggest for Sigma and Razor's Edge.
But when I look at things like Project M/Project + for Super Smash Bros. Brawl, which completely change the game, all the mechanics in it, and all the stuff it adds to it, I think "why not? wouldn't it be awesome?".

Regards to both of you.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Farnham The Drunk » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:53 pm

i disagree with everything everyone said haha
Except for bugfixes.... The only thing i would want in NG II are bugfixes... Its perfect the way it is imo. and sigma 2 is not NG imo, cant save that one... and there are no positives in that game. Its a fake experience if u ask me. The toddler version of the original...

Let the war begin!!! lol

EDIT: Ok, maybe adding costumes would be nice...
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by JTB123 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:35 pm

I would go with fixing the legit bugs and technical issues it has first and then take it from there. While I do think the game would benefit from a couple of changes to IS ninjas and projectile damage in general, Gold Vangelf fireballs literally being a death juggle on MN is one of the few things I think it busted; if we could play the game and not have to deal with dropped inputs, enemies randomly tanking launchers, OT's not triggering etc the game would end up very different.

From there I think one could make a good case for things that actually need drastic changes. I can't speak to NGS2 but I remember delimbing in that game feeling straight up random which turned me off pretty quick, one thing I think the coop ones need though is local mode. I don't think they actually had that but I might be wrong.

Ninjas only survival though please with every weapon available :bolt:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Grayson1048 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:26 am

You too brig good points, JTB. And I myself have thought of other ones since I posted this. It's not a finished idea, much less a finished project; and even if it was, it's not one I'd have the knowledge to take up on my own.

1) Yes, the bugs are definitely the first thing to fix. Also, NGS2 doesn't, but Vanilla 2 is in my experience the only Ninja Gaiden game that tends to freeze. It crashes flat. And when that happens in a speedrun, at the end of a Test of Valor or in a survival missions, it's fucking irritating. That would have to be fixed as well.

2) On NGS2, a lot more projectiles mean death juggles on MN. That's why I suggest toning their damage down. Not to the point of NG2 damage, but let them mean less. Of course, let there be more flying at a time, although not to NG2 numbers.
A middle ground could be reached, avoiding both games' perceived cheapness. Thus my idea :)

3) I don't know what you mean by dropped inputs and enemies randomly tanking launchers.

4) Yes, delimbing in sigma 2 is kind of random. I suppose it takes longer to delimb someone because it *takes* longer to kill someone; they upped enemy damage resistance because they downed enemy-on-screen number. And, again, hence my proposal to reach a middle ground.

5) Yes! I had actually thought of that but I forgot it in the post. Local multiplayer should definitely be a thing. One should be able to choose to play each mission (except maybe Survivals) solo, co-op online, co-op locally with a friend (splitscreen), or co-op with IA partner.

What do you think of my proposals for Sigma 1 and Razor's Edge?

PS. Fan of your work, mate. Cheers.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Grayson1048 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:43 am

A lot more has come to mind since posting this.
Aside from the game mechanics, what should the Anniversary Edition keep from each version?

1.- Should it keep the boss battles like in Vanilla or like in Sigma 2? (Being able to Izuna Drop Genshin, him having Piercing Void ninpo, Rasetsu blocking UT's, different combos for looping the Greater Fiends, for example)
Or maybe keep some from Vanilla and some from S2?

2.- Should we keep the new bosses Sigma 2 added? The Buddha statue, Lady Liberty, the Tengu brothers, the black dragon instead of the Quetzalcoatl twins, Marbus instead of the 2 armadillos, etcetera.
Again, maybe keep some and get rid of others?

3.- In areas where the games look very different, like the blue fog forest before Volf or the first fiery parts of the Underworld, should it look high contrast like Vanilla or low contrast like Sigma 2?

4.- Should we keep each mission being able to be played in 5 different difficulties, like Vanilla 2, or should missions be separated into Acolyte, Warrior, Mentor, MN and UN, like in Sigma 2?

5.- Anniversary Edition should, of course, keep all the costumes from Vanilla 2 in all their color schemes, plus the costumes added in Sigma 2.

6.- Should it keep Chapter Challenge and Ninja Race from Sigma 2?

7.- Should weapon upgrades remain restricted to one per blue Muramasa statue and up to level 2 until halfway through the game, or should it go back to Vanilla 2 version of things: wherever and whenever one wants.

8.- Anniversary edition should definitely keeps the Test of Valor, which weren't on Sigma 2.

I think that's all for now...
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Royta » Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:31 am

> i disagree with everything everyone said haha
Come on now. Zedonius's airtime lasting 2 minutes sometimes is just bad design.

> gold vangelf juggle of doom
Don't get hit :P
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Farnham The Drunk » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:11 pm

Royta wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:31 am
> i disagree with everything everyone said haha
Come on now. Zedonius's airtime lasting 2 minutes sometimes is just bad design.

> gold vangelf juggle of doom
Don't get hit :P
zed:
yeah thats just rng and i agree that it is infuriating sometimes, but honestly i believe that the infuriating parts are what define this game and its difficulty...
i wouldnt wanna change that, its what makes the game for me... i know i am weird, but thats how i feel ;-)

gold van gelf:
same thing... haha u say dont get hit, but thats really what it comes down to... the juggle is a punish for not keeping an eye on the van gelf... u get juggled? its always ur fault for playin it risky... and thats the beauty of it... u never know what is gonna happen, thats why i play this game for 12 years now, cause its never the same.... every battle can be over in a second, keepin me on my toes... no other game has that... i would never change any of that.

and i agree with JTB, only because i consider the points he makes to be bugs (missed OTs, DS UT pattern, etc) but not on van gelfs and IS ninja... those need to stay as they are... NG II is a delicate Iframe dance... surviving 9 IS stuck in you, thats what its about... for me, it would be like changing a painting... i often joke about the AI being played by devs in a basement, cause they feel so alive... but maybe thats just me, apparently most do not feel that way...

but ofc i am not against adding things.... f.e. mission mode... i think we can all agree that a better mission mode would be nice...
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by JTB123 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:53 pm

I do agree that the game being never truly yours to control is what makes it so fun. NG2 never really lets you take full control of everything that is happening and it makes the combat so exciting.

Mission Mode needs a total overhaul in my book. I would love to see the green essence go as it kind of ruins one aspect of Survival and that is actually staying alive. You can score more in one round than in 3 if you play knowing you will die but prioritise green essence.

It's unlikely but I don't think NG coming to PC is a total write off. You never know what's really going on behind the scenes and with more challenging games being a lot more popular now due to things like Twitch it might just happen.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Massaca » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:43 am

You really can't just middle-ground this stuff thinking you'll get the best of both, you'll only end up ruining both. NGS2 would be alright as a sort of 'NGB' style of NG2 if it had some damage tweaks and reduced grabs. Meanwhile NG2 is pretty damn delicate that you wouldn't want to go messing with it much.

I don't think the IS Ninja spam is cheap. You can deal with it, it's up to the player to be good enough to do so. Something I do have issue with machinegun fire stunning, may well be me being unable to deal with it but sometimes the Tac Ninjas would just wreck me without me being able to deal with them or recover from it.


I think the only things I'd change about NG2 are:

-redo Mentor difficulty so it's not just 'mass Tac Ninja mode'. Or perhaps add some 'gimmick' modes like that instead and give those difficulty options. Could do with an extra Ninja type added in, might be nice to have the WS Ninja back with the 1 sword style.
-I'd personally like a custom difficulty where you can scale up/down various elements like enemy numbers, enemy 'tiers' so to speak, HP levels, aggressiveness and damage they deal. Just with an Acolyte to Master option for each or something.

-Dagra Dai needs some more vulnerability/recovery before and after his lightning attack, he can spam that too much without delay between.
-Been a while but IIRC the water dragon has an OP area attack that does extreme damage, I can't remember if you can avoid it
-Skeleton boss needs some animations/hitbox windows aligned properly. The big one I remember is that his kick attack hitbox starts before the animation and lingers a few moments after the animation.
-Worm Boss is a bit glitchy if you try to fight it melee, it'll flicker and vanish in place. Needs to be worked on rather than just removed.
-Can you even fight the Armadillos properly with pure melee? I can't remember but they could do with being reworked. All this said, it's easy to say 'thing is broken, could be fixed' but then how do you even do that in a way that works.
-I think I prefer the double gold dragon fight to the new one they added in NGS2. Seem to recall not liking it much but then I also only played through NGS2 3 times compared to hundreds through NG2 :P

Enemy worms could do with a health drop, maybe add more of them and make them faster at dropping underground and moving around but vastly drop their health so they die to 1 Scythe UT, maybe 2 FSs. They're pretty sucky to fight as-is.
I'd also like to see some of the NGB fiends that were added to NGS2 back into NG2, just for a little extra variety in encounters. Even if it doesn't make sense from a story point (no idea).


Fight zones either need to be expanded or have barriers thrown up to restrict you. It's really annoying in some places if you stray just slightly too far and the whole thing despawns. Or an explosion knocks you out of the arena.
And let enemies survive water too, annoying when a ninja/mage/Gelf gets knocked into the water in Ch.02 or 05.
I think this is an example that I didn't understand at the time, but I think the fight despawns a certain way up the forward path.



Make the girls chapters separate from the main story. Optional side-story stuff. I would like having Ayane and Momoji (?) as optional playable characters for the main game and Ryu for their chapters too. IIRC Rachel has that projectile that she swings around on so she wouldn't be compatible? Would be neat to have Ayane able to use some of the other weapons too, tweaked a bit for her style but not drastically changed. But again, easy to say hard to imagine.
And no set coloured costumes, give a base with an editable palette.

No removal of manual saves, keeping Chapter Select is fine if they give you the option of setting your gear levels and HP/Ninpo rather than being stuck with everything maxed.

The Karma system. Needs a complete overhaul. I dunno about time limits on fights, the one thing I do know is that UT score needs to be removed. Maybe make the first UT on an enemy either give the regular points or give 0, then subsequent repeat UTs on the same enemy/ies should subtract karma. None of this 1-hit KG/DS UT bullshit. That has to go.

And something I've always wanted, a mission maker. Allow you to select an area of a map, whack up the barriers locking the arena in and then set whichever enemies you want and put them into waves with some basic triggers for spawning/wave progression. It'd be really cool to be able to create a custom survival, 100 enemy mission or gauntlet like the one that sends you up the spire to Dagra Dai at the top.

or should missions be separated into Acolyte, Warrior, Mentor, MN and UN, like in Sigma 2?
This should never have been implemented in the first place and after it was, should never have been kept.

Vanilla 2 is in my experience the only Ninja Gaiden game that tends to freeze. It crashes flat. And when that happens in a speedrun, at the end of a Test of Valor or in a survival missions, it's fucking irritating. That would have to be fixed as well.
This seems to come up a lot. I had over 1000 hours logged, game almost never crashed or froze for me so I don't really get why others have a lot of issues.

- perhaps add Scarabs back in for some extra items;
- allow us to GT dogs;
I like these two ideas a lot, except rather than Scarabs just use the Skulls.
I'd be all for removing the ToVs and putting their rewards behind Skull collection. Or put more variety into the ToVs but they'll probably still suck.

I've lost interest in rambling now >_>
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Royta » Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:32 am

It's funny to see how different opinions can be, to me the beauty of NGII is that you *are* in control and that everything is up to you. Zedonius just chilling in the sky without any move being able to harm him feels weird in that sense, especially since his secondary encounter has respawning arrows nearby (which are for the mines, I know, but still). Dagra Dai does it far better, you can fight him constantly and there's nearly always a damage oppertunity if you get creative. With Zed, once he's in the air you just...wait. There's no challenge in that. It just wastes my time.

> green essence
Always loved how it made everything a tad more random, really like its inclusion and wouldn't have minded a 'Green Essence difficulty' for the campaign. That said I don't care about karma in the slightest so for me it is more an interesting orb for UTs.

> Survival
Felt Sigma did Survival best, especially how they let you fight numerous bosses instead of just Rasetsu and Fiend Genshin.

> NGS2 dragon
Wasn't a fan either, especially with the mid-combat 'cinematic'.

> glitches
Wormboss can completely glitch out, I've had him get stuck in walls so I could just Arrow/Scythe UT him constantly for example. Same with the glitchy worms at the end of the acid section that just constantly pop in and out or the Striggans that cannot be OT'd (chapter 10) or Mages that cannot be GT'd (start of Chapter 5, only a few mages though) due to a bug. I can't imagine people saying "leave that shit in". Same with an OT sometimes just completely not working, leading Ryu to do the animation, have it connect, and then nothing happen.

> Armadillo pure melee
If you want to do it no-damage it is basically a crapshoot imo. That said you can easily work around it by using your tools smartly i.e. UT, IS and Void.

> karma system
Personally never cared for it since playing it correctly seems to go against everything that makes NG's combat fun. That said, different tastes per person so I'm not one to judge.

> Mission maker
Would love this. I know GoW and Dante's Inferno toyed around with it. But generally speaking designers avoid it since it makes it impossible to make mission-mode DLC because of it.

> freezes
On X360 the game crashed numerous times for me, locked up, slowed down. There was one chest I could never open until I got a Xbox One X, the one after the staircase fight in Chapter 10. Just opening it would crash the game 100% of the time for me. No idea what's going on there. Used both Disc and Digital versions, installed, purely off of the disc. Patched and unpatched. I've tried everything I could get my hands on. X1X is flawless though for me.

> ToV
Personaly would prefer more finely tuned challenges over "this enemy type 50 times". I.e. perhaps 5 waves of increasingly interesting and unique enemy combinations you don't see a lot like IS with werewolves or Van Gelfs paired with archers etc.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Farnham The Drunk » Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:03 pm

@Royta

i am just as baffled as u will be when u read this, but i found out yesterday that u can throw IS at zed .... i am NOT joking haha...
and i know u probably knew this already, but u can damage him while he is up in the air if he doesnt decide to block (ninpo, aerial attacks...)

about the armadillo, you can fight him with melee just fine if you know what ur doin, there are many attacks that just stunlock him... the double armadillos tho? thats another story haha...
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Royta » Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:40 am

I'm really sure I tried that, don't they just...bounce off, or is my mind playing tricks on me? If so fuck everything I said haha, IIRC this would also work against Marbus in NGB. Got this on cam? I won't be able to play NGII for a few days (social obligations).

> damage in the air
I know you can, but with his constant ability casting it is far too dangerous. You can even do Vermillion Bird but it's basically asking for death thanks to those lavashowers. IIRC he auto-shields against Ninpo in the air, correct?

> armadillo
Yeah the first one is pretty doable even when he is firing away, but I do feel there's some RNG. Double is really a crapshoot I feel from start to finish. Also with the finishing animation which sometimes doesn't trigger for me at all.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Farnham The Drunk » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:24 pm

haha yeah here is a clip of it ;-) i was lucky enough to stream it...

its not an auto shield, its rng if u hit him in air with ninpo or not. i feel like the IS can only stick during some animations and not in general as well... just like with genshin
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Massaca » Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:54 pm

Neat to hear about the armadillo. I think I only ever fought it melee the first time I played then always with the IS after finding out about it, never got back to trying the fight with melee. Just thought it would be really hard to do anything to it with melee from my rather poor memory of the fight.
Edit: nevermind, undid what I did.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Shigurui » Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:31 am

Getting IS to tag Zed is rarer than rocking horse shit IIRC. I know I managed it once or twice when doing no melee runs years ago but couldn't ever do it with anything like regularity.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Farnham The Drunk » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:43 am

Shigurui wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:31 am
Getting IS to tag Zed is rarer than rocking horse shit IIRC. I know I managed it once or twice when doing no melee runs years ago but couldn't ever do it with anything like regularity.
haha... yep, sadly you are right, i cant do it anymore lol... but i found a semi consistent way of damaging him in air. as soon as he starts his 4 fireball volley, cast void, if u autoaim the void is fast enough to hit him before his cast is over. not a 100% strat, but i would say at least 80% of the time u hit him... ofc this works only if no gajas are around...
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Re: Ninja Gaiden 2 Anniversary Edition

Post by Shigurui » Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:39 am

^ Yeah I definitely remember using Void on him with a decent hit rate. I haven't played NG2 in years so I forget how much of a dick he is. I did play NGS2 fairly recently and didn't find him to be too bad in the Clocktower but in the Underworld he did his usual floating about forever bullshit. :tired:
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