I hope y'all like reading...

PLATFORM: PS3; RELEASE: June 14th 2007
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H.Smoke
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I hope y'all like reading...

Post by H.Smoke » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:30 am

Hello everybody. I'm new here and although I lurked the place for some time I decided to make an account since I've some questions that I can't find answered anywhere so I hope to get lucky here.

They are about a little of everything, so here we go...

- In one of Balbaid's NGB MN KR videos Bigalski said Inazuma Lvl.2 is more likely to knock Alma II down. Does this have any in-depth explanation? Or is something that just happens?

- Also in that same run I heard that is suggested to keep Inferno at Lvl.1 the whole game. Why? Which advantages do this have?

- Usually I see in karma runs that people never level up the Lunar and the Dabilahro. I'm sure that's because you can do more UTs before killing an enemy, but I'd like to get a confirmation about that.

- Is there any explanation about why a lot of the battles had its times changed? No, I meant... Is there any explanation about why almost every fight in this version has completely fucked up time limits? I'd seriously like to read something about the matter because I think I wouldn't be wrong if I suggest that some fights are virtually impossible to complete in the given time on Master Ninja.

Seriously, it's ridiculous. The archives room challenge in Sigma has like 400 seconds and in Black was three times longer.

- Aside from Murai, who gives you 10.000 points upon defeat, which bosses doesn't give you the whole bonus? I know that the first form of the Emperor doesn't give you points, which is understandable but, why Alma II doesn't? Is a bug or something?

Also, when you defeat Nicchae and Ishtaros with Rachel, do they give you 100.000 points each or you receive that amount for defeating both?

- Now regarding Mission Mode... I'm not a fan of it since it doesn't let you customize Ryu like DMC3 does with Dante, but I've been messing around with it and caught my attention that in the second mission (the one you have to defeat 100 enemies) it doesn't matter how well I do, I make ~600.000 at best and I see that the record for that mission is usually +1.5M so I want to know how does Mission Mode calculates your karma and if in higher difficulties it awards you more points (I'm playing on normal) or I'm missing something...

FINALLY, I've a couple of questions about Sigma 2. Do I post them here to avoid making another thread or should I go ahead?
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Murphy's Ghost
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Re: I hope y'all like reading...

Post by Murphy's Ghost » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:25 am

First off, welcome to the site! :sunnyd:

Most of your questions are pretty in-depth as regards to NGB karma running so I'll let the experts handle that.


I don't think there was ever any explanation given for the Sigma time limits. It's just my opinion, but I feel like the Hayashi-led Team Ninja (from which NGS was basically the first product- Itagaki and the other senior staff that left with him was still there when NGS was being made but they were mostly working on NG II at the time) has a habit of over-doing difficulty for the sake of being 'hardcore' or something like that. Put simply, they suck at balancing fun / fair / challenge IMO.

NGS2 questions could be put here or in the NGS2 board. We're not TOO particular about such things so it's really up to you. :ninjawink:
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Re: I hope y'all like reading...

Post by Dark Hazuki » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:13 am

Welcome to the site, buddy! :wave:

Some great questions there, but the only one I feel I can personally answer is the mission mode one. Basically, Master Ninja difficulty gives you a 2.5x multiplier on all points gained, so if you want a high score, you will need to play it on the highest difficulty.

You can read Yebyosh's excellent karma explanation guide for story and mission mode here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/xbox/928401-nin ... faqs/42597

It's for NGB, but I think it applies to NGS as well. Here is a snippet from the guide that is relevant to this question:
2. Mission Mode Karma System
----------------------------

a. Overview

The karma system in Mission Mode is quite different from Story Mode as
you are mostly playing effectively a single encounter in each mission.
You still earn point in game for combos and essence techniques but
everything else is tallied when you have completed the mission. There
are other karma factors that were never considered in Story Mode, like
health, healing items, mission difficulty, etc.

b. In-game : Combo

This is exactly the same as in Story Mode. You gain 10 points for each
hit if you managed a 2-hit and above combo.

c. In-game : Essence Techniques

This is exactly the same as in Story Mode. You gain 2,000 points for
each ET and 5,000 points for each UT. You also face a limit of 50
essence technique awards.

d. End-game : Time

The timer in Mission Mode starts from 0 and counts up to a maximum of
999.99 seconds. Once it reaches 999.99 seconds, you will receive 0 karma
for your mission, regardless of all other factors. So even if you have
gotten 50 UTs in the mission, you will still get 0 if you complete the
mission at 999.99 seconds.

If you managed to complete the mission within the time, you will receive

Mission Mode Time Bonus = ( 999 - time completed ) * 100

Note if you finish at 999.01 - 999.98 seconds, you will receive 0 points
for the time bonus, but will still receive points for other factors.

e. End-game : Kills

In Mission Mode, all kills, whether they be bosses or minions, are worth
3,000 points each.

Note that in Mission Mode, if a foe is killed by something else rather
than by your own hands, you will receive no credit nor essence for the
death, and the foe will be respawned ( with some exceptions, e.g. ogres
).

f. End-game : Ninpo

Each full ki slot at the end of the mission is worth 20,000 points.
Since generally you have no elixirs to replenish ki, you are well advised
to refrain from casting ninpo if you wish to maximise karma.

g. End-game : Healing Items

Each unconsumed Elixir of Spiritual Life in your inventory is worth
10,000 points. Likewise, each unconsumed Great Spirit Elixir in your
inventory is worth 40,000 points.

You can pick up elixirs around in the battlefield and keep them for
points at the end.

h. End-game : Health

If you have full health at the end of the mission, you get 7,200 points.

Mission Mode Health Bonus = %age of health remaining * 7200

i. End-game : Essence

The amount of essence you have collected is multiplied by 2.

Mission Mode Essence Bonus = Essence * 2

j. End-game : Mission Difficulty

Your above bonuses are added up, and then multiplied by the Mission
Difficulty.

Normal - * 1.0
Hard - * 1.5
Very Hard - * 2.0
Master Ninja - * 2.5
:thumb:
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Re: I hope y'all like reading...

Post by julius-ruler4 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:02 pm

I can explain this about the ninpo, the enemies, the time limits and the bosses themselves

- Ninpo is faster to cast and has more impact probability on an enemy. The perfect example is Alma II because the inazuma LvL2 is faster to cast it has more chance of knocking her down then LvL3 inazuma because the longer a ninpo takes to cast the better the enemies are prepared for impact and the more likely they are to dodge it. Compare this to "Swords and Sandals II": power attack means LvL3 ninpo so lowest hit chance; normal attack means LvL2 ninpo so average chance; and Quick attack means LvL1 ninpo so highest chance for a hit.

- Bosses about the vigoor emperor and Alma II give no points because there is a bug in every copy of NGS, which hasn't been fixed since 2007. Now for Nicchae and Ishtaros they grant you 100k each. Watch drkhades and tomii90 their runs for NGS CH14 since they explain it by showing it to you.

- Time limits have been changed to let the player think faster and finish the fights faster. The addition of the Rachel-chapters are the main reason for it. Hayashi wanted to keep the total time limit for each difficulty if you complete the last chapter of that specific difficulty (Although I disagree with the berserkers, good you can do CA but they can attack off-screen which is worse then in NGB, where you cannot do CA).

Simply said, NGS is a remake of NGB but IMO they shouldn't have changed the enemies, nor the AI tweakable by a 3rd party system. Best version to do a KR is on NGB since you have some crazy time limits and Itagaki was ahead of his time for NGB and NGII.
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Re: I hope y'all like reading...

Post by H.Smoke » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:23 am

Murphy's Ghost wrote:I don't think there was ever any explanation given for the Sigma time limits. It's just my opinion, but I feel like the Hayashi-led Team Ninja (from which NGS was basically the first product- Itagaki and the other senior staff that left with him was still there when NGS was being made but they were mostly working on NG II at the time) has a habit of over-doing difficulty for the sake of being 'hardcore' or something like that. Put simply, they suck at balancing fun / fair / challenge IMO.
Seems likely. The difficulty in Razor's Edge was awful. I mean, it was difficult but for the wrong reasons.
Dark Hazuki wrote:You can read Yebyosh's excellent karma explanation guide for story and mission mode here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/xbox/928401-nin ... faqs/42597

It's for NGB, but I think it applies to NGS as well. Here is a snippet from the guide that is relevant to this question:
Yes! Thanks, I wanted to take a look at something exactly like this. I don't know why I didn't think about checking GameFAQ's first lol.
julius-ruler4 wrote:- Bosses about the vigoor emperor and Alma II give no points because there is a bug in every copy of NGS, which hasn't been fixed since 2007. Now for Nicchae and Ishtaros they grant you 100k each. Watch drkhades and tomii90 their runs for NGS CH14 since they explain it by showing it to you.
Thanks, I'll take a look at these videos. Did Alma II and the first form of the Emperor give you points after you defeat them in Black? It has been a long time since I played the game and I don't have an Xbox to check it anymore =/
julius-ruler4 wrote:- Time limits have been changed to let the player think faster and finish the fights faster. The addition of the Rachel-chapters are the main reason for it. Hayashi wanted to keep the total time limit for each difficulty if you complete the last chapter of that specific difficulty (Although I disagree with the berserkers, good you can do CA but they can attack off-screen which is worse then in NGB, where you cannot do CA).

Simply said, NGS is a remake of NGB but IMO they shouldn't have changed the enemies, nor the AI tweakable by a 3rd party system. Best version to do a KR is on NGB since you have some crazy time limits and Itagaki was ahead of his time for NGB and NGII.
I see. Well, that's a shame. Now I despise Rachel's chapters even more, what a waste. They should have been included as bonus content or something like that (in a similar fashion like RE4 did with Ada's chapters).
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Re: I hope y'all like reading...

Post by Alhazard » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:31 am

H.Smoke wrote:Hello everybody. I'm new here and although I lurked the place for some time I decided to make an account since I've some questions that I can't find answered anywhere so I hope to get lucky here.

They are about a little of everything, so here we go...

- In one of Balbaid's NGB MN KR videos Bigalski said Inazuma Lvl.2 is more likely to knock Alma II down. Does this have any in-depth explanation? Or is something that just happens? It's mostly on observation, but my conjecture on this is that you will only KD Alma if your ninpo hits as a counter attack, and it's much harder to time it with lvl3 ninpo due to its long startup time.

- Also in that same run I heard that is suggested to keep Inferno at Lvl.1 the whole game. Why? Which advantages do this have? You actually want to keep it at level 1 or 2 due to short startup time. Lvl3 ninpo has a noticable startup by around 2-3 sec.

- Usually I see in karma runs that people never level up the Lunar and the Dabilahro. I'm sure that's because you can do more UTs before killing an enemy, but I'd like to get a confirmation about that. Yes it is for UT farming, but I don't think you should keep Dabi at lvl1 in NGS VH or MN. Also you need to level lunar to 2 in NGS NM.

- Is there any explanation about why a lot of the battles had its times changed? No, I meant... Is there any explanation about why almost every fight in this version has completely fucked up time limits? I'd seriously like to read something about the matter because I think I wouldn't be wrong if I suggest that some fights are virtually impossible to complete in the given time on Master Ninja. No idea, but my conjecture is that some of the time limits make sense on VH only, not MN. Seems like they forgot to prorate the time limits appropriately.

Seriously, it's ridiculous. The archives room challenge in Sigma has like 400 seconds and in Black was three times longer. For example, VH AC only has 367 seconds like MN, but I made the time limit and got 50 UTs on my current run.

- Aside from Murai, who gives you 10.000 points upon defeat, which bosses doesn't give you the whole bonus? I know that the first form of the Emperor doesn't give you points, which is understandable but, why Alma II doesn't? Is a bug or something? Likely bugged, but the 3 Galla fight before Hydracubus don't give the time bonus whether you make the time limit or not. In addition, the 10k from Murai is the time bonus

Also, when you defeat Nicchae and Ishtaros with Rachel, do they give you 100.000 points each or you receive that amount for defeating both? Pretty sure you have to beat them both to get 200k and kill bonus but this is something I can test since I still have the save file.

- Now regarding Mission Mode... I'm not a fan of it since it doesn't let you customize Ryu like DMC3 does with Dante, but I've been messing around with it and caught my attention that in the second mission (the one you have to defeat 100 enemies) it doesn't matter how well I do, I make ~600.000 at best and I see that the record for that mission is usually +1.5M so I want to know how does Mission Mode calculates your karma and if in higher difficulties it awards you more points (I'm playing on normal) or I'm missing something... Answered already

FINALLY, I've a couple of questions about Sigma 2. Do I post them here to avoid making another thread or should I go ahead? Ask in NGS2 forum
I will add that despite its flaw, NGS is a much better game to KR. The short times are much more better for me design wise if they can be made, and there are more save statutes and shops to make the experience less painful. If you fall down while fighting archers before bone dragon, it's not soul crushing for example. Finally, I think Rachel's chapters are pretty interesting overall.
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Re: I hope y'all like reading...

Post by Murphy's Ghost » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:35 am

H.Smoke wrote: Seems likely. The difficulty in Razor's Edge was awful. I mean, it was difficult but for the wrong reasons.

It's a heck of a lot better than NG3 vanilla, anyway.

Razor's Edge did a lot of things right, and I think it shows that the new Team Ninja might be on the right track in a lot of ways. But they still need to learn how to balance things better. Making every other fight a 5 wave 60 enemy marathon in a game that intentionally has no healing / ninpo replenishment items is just tedious. It's one less layer to peal away when you get good, too. Doing a no item run in the old NG games made you step your game up. In NG3 it's just a standard run because there are no items.

The combat system itself is REMARKABLY improved compared to the original NG3, though. If the game had a bit better enemy and encounter design it would be absolutely fantastic with that combat system.
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Re: I hope y'all like reading...

Post by H.Smoke » Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:06 am

Alhazard thanks for your input. I've been watching some of your videos and congratulations for your amazing NGS karma run! tomii90 was in the first place for so long that I found hard to believe that someone surpassed him when I saw it lol

One thing I'd like to add about the time limits in Sigma is: I don't care if Team Ninja would have decided to make them shorter since in Black you usually had a lot of time and you could make some mistakes and take it slower and still make the time limit. In Sigma however they're criminally shorter and you need to constantly drag essence and take a lot of risks just to be sure that you have a chance to make it. Basically I think they went overboard with the time limits.

And about what julius-ruler4 said about Hayashi wanting to maintain the time limit for each difficulty, what about that 2 fiend challenges they added in Sigma? That alone would break the balance, except if the change of times already includes said FC (which isn't unlikely). In fact, if I remember correctly the 3rd chapter in Sigma is impossible to finish with the time bonus if you decide to do the fiend challenge.
Murphy's Ghost wrote:Razor's Edge did a lot of things right, and I think it shows that the new Team Ninja might be on the right track in a lot of ways. But they still need to learn how to balance things better. Making every other fight a 5 wave 60 enemy marathon in a game that intentionally has no healing / ninpo replenishment items is just tedious. It's one less layer to peal away when you get good, too. Doing a no item run in the old NG games made you step your game up. In NG3 it's just a standard run because there are no items.
You said it. Is really tedious. The combat itself is pretty good but the game has a lot of things that I don't really like.
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Re: I hope y'all like reading...

Post by Dark Hazuki » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:08 am

H.Smoke wrote: Yes! Thanks, I wanted to take a look at something exactly like this. I don't know why I didn't think about checking GameFAQ's first lol.
:lol: ...I'm pretty sure if Yebyosh was still around, he'd post that guide here too; it's such a comprehensive explanation of the karma system. I wonder if he'd mind if I stuck it in a thread here on his behalf...:think:
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Re: I hope y'all like reading...

Post by reim0027 » Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:11 pm

Hey Smoke! Welcome to our forum. :wave:
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